J's exercise log

I'm not sure if I've said this before, but I'd look at the hip & ankle when you get knee issues. You often find one of those are the issue with the knee & fixing that fixes the knee? In the 'joint by joint' approach you should be aiming at mobility in the ankle, stability in the knee, then mobility in the hip (obviously this is a simplified idea as all the joints need the correct amount of mobility & stability - but this is a simplified idea to detect injury). The idea is if you lack mobility, say in the ankle, you can force the knee to compensate & try & do something it's not designed to do, so it will eventually get an issue. You need to check out some guys like Mike Boyle, Eric Cressey, etc to get some more ideas about that as it's really too much to go into on a messageboard post.

I've done a lot of different things lately to try to correct any imbalances and just in general make sure it's not a lack of muscle. I bought an exercise bicycle a week or two ago. Been using that a lot. Now also doing some power cleans and jumping exercises. Previously a lot of stair running, one legged deadlifts, etc. The knee has been in this limbo where I can't say whether it's getting better, worse or staying the same. I guess because I started running outside on concrete and and running faster. Beening trying to run like Roger Bannister.... This has made the knee feel a bit worse perhaps.... But at the same time all the strengthening exercises have made my legs much stronger.... So today for example, I think it feels better... But at the end of a 13 hour workday, if I were to try to run to my car, it would be a painful looking limp. Now also, the addition of the exercise bicycle along with the running has become too much and I'm feeling just too tired, so may have to ease up a bit. Actually was just running 2 or 3 times a week though. But very hard runs,. 8x600 yard intervals.

The exercise bike I found is awesome though.

Sounds like you're slowly finding things that work for you, it sounds like strengthening has helped a lot, but you still need to find your best running technique. Hopefully over the next 12 months things will fall into place for you.
After a 13 hour work day I think mine gait would best be described as a crawl

Yes, thanks. Today I contemplated running but a few strides were painful... and back a few months ago I could tell my knee was off but it didn't actually hurt while running. Now since I've gone out on the pavement and picked up the pace that's quit being the case. The last week or so it's started hurting while I'm running, so I think I need to not run when that's the case. So maybe I'll just be riding an exercise bicycle for a while. I'm quite annoyed about this. The running bug had hit me really hard. But the exercise bike I bought makes it tolerable to take some time off.

I've reached the point with the exercise bike that I'm pulling up on the handle bars in order to push down on the pedals harder for the last minute or so. Hope to slowly increase that to longer time periods.

Today I bought strength shoes. I had owned a pair long ago. Which I had really liked. Way back then I had them hoping they'd make me better at basketball. Which they did. I had more agility. Mostly better at accelerating. Jumping was a bit closer to effortless.

I recall though having extremely sore calves at times. And once slightly pulling a calf muscle when I tried to just push through the extreme soreness that it seemed at the time I just couldn't get past. I think that caused me to throw them away... Buying them again for the sake of my knees. I very badly want to be able to continue jogging. Hopefully this will do some good, either by strengthening my calves or just becoming the way I always go jogging. Although to jog long distances in such shoes would take incredibly strong calves.

Back to going a bit slower for longer distances with the jogging. Also just on the treadmill. I have so much more energy this way. Slowly working into strength shoes. Did 1 mile at 6mph today in the shoes without soreness although it's a little harder. Then with normal shoes did 1.5 miles at 6mph, then a short rest and 0.8 miles at 6.5mph. I want to do 3 to 4.5 miles each run. 3 or 4 times a week. Also flipping the exercise bike upside down and using it as an upperbody ergometer for 20 minutes 3 times a week. Really like doing that. Curious how that will affect my strength. In the short term I fly up on chin-ups. And then ten minutes as a regular bike 3 times a week.

Knees feeling better. Maybe slowing back down and retreating to the treadmill is helping. But also stretching has helped. Literally immediately. Knees feeling fine at end of 13 hour days. Able to jog to car afterwards without pain.

It occured to me treadmill running may be a bit like the difference between vibrams and highly cushioned shoes. Maybe the treadmill is giving me bad form? So two and half weeks ago I quit the treadmill and started going for a 4.8 mile run twice a week over an extremely hilly course. Also then twice a week on the exercise bike and upper body ergometer.

The run times have been 57, 53, 52, 51:07, and 48:34! Before this last surprisingly good run I switched from standing to sitting during my bike workout.

So far enjoying it pretty well. I did have some early severe calf soreness in the begining as I am changing my form from the treadmill. Seems to be going away now. Knees feel pretty good now. Although this is relatively slow running... but not really, it's extremely hilly, some parts are fast, some slow. Right knee still occasionally bothers me. But no knee pain while running. Mainly just crossing my legs, occasionally when going up stairs. No problem though running up steep hills. Or down.

to add on since last post. The next week I got the flu and didn't finish and then ran a 51:10. And really got sick of the extreme hilliness of the run. Switched to a flat 3 mile run twice a week. Did 26:40 and 26:37 and just got sick of twice a week running or something. Then did intervals m,w,f for last two weeks and this monday for about a 3.1 mile course. First four times ran a minute, then walked a minute. Times were 32:30, 30:30, 30:25 and 29:50. Then it seemed like I was getting just a touch of knee soreness. So I went to 3 minutes of running and one minute of walking. Times have been 29:15, 28:30, and today 27:52.

I've tried such intervals twice in the last couple of years and ended up with painfully sore knees. So far I'm holding on this time but not sure if I'll make it. Haven't given up though. Maybe I'll adapt. Perhaps just need to gain some muscle. Staying off my heels has maybe helped some, but it's more than that. Added a bit of basketball playing after the runs to strengthen my legs.

I love these types of runs. Love how I'm feeling except for the knee issues. Hope my knees manage OK. Today my left one is hurting a bit but just at the moment when I lift that foot off the ground when walking. Usually my right one has a dull ache that seems to not be related to running. Maybe I twisted something (permanently injured a ligament) at work last fall.

Continuing with upper body ergometer twice a week. Sleeping pretty well. Ate chocolate Saturday and had very stressful day on Sunday, likely no caffeine/stress relation though... Impossible not to be stressed out at work Sunday with what I was put through.

Illness can be a pain when you're training, but it sounds like you're doing pretty good with the new system (better sleeping etc). As you said the knee pain could be the only issue, you'll just have to keep an eye on it.

Yes, thanks.
I wish the knee issues had a bit more rhyme or reason. On this wednesday I didn't run as I had to work 14 hours and by the end of the day even without running, my knees felt pretty crappy. I was thinking I had better take a week or two off. The next morning though they felt a lot better and I must admit I'm a little addicted to how running makes me feel... so I ran. Did 27:20 for what is either 3.1 or 3.2 miles 3 min/1 min run / walk intervals.

I was really thinking though that I probably shouldn't have been running and was expecting to have really achy knees on Friday. But today, (Friday), my knees feel great. So I don't know. Maybe with a gradual transition to faster running, I'll adapt. Maybe not. We'll see.

Back from vacation. Knees feeling definitely better now. Left knee has been perfect. Right is almost perfect. Had some forgettable runs. Fried my calves trying to run barefoot at the beach. Anyway lately started hitting quarters hard which I think are helping my knees. Also switched to landing on my heels which gives me a smoother stride.

Last Wednesday 1:48, 1:37, 1:32, 1:31, 1:37, 1:44. Average of 1:38. Then half a mile in 3:58.

Sunday 1:36, 1:34, 1:29, 1:30, 1:36, 1:44, 1:42, 1:43. Average of 1:36.75

Today: 1:32, 1:26, 1:32, 1:32, 1:35, 1:38, 1:38, 1:38. Average of 1:34. Then half a mile in 3:50.

Still weigh 220. Tried a set of chin-ups a few weeks ago. Just did 10, could have done at least 15. Had insomnia afterwards for the first time in a long time. Back to the upperbody ergometer. Feel as if holding onto upper body muscle well with it. Really feel very good thanks to the faster running.

Bought vibrams a week ago and have ran in them three times so far. Changed running style again so I'm no longer landing on heels so hard. I felt fine with landing on heels but don't think I can do that with the vibrams. So now, my calves are very sore again. Also the top of my right foot hurts but maybe that's from where my parents dog stomped on my foot while I was wearing the vibrams... not sure. Will start doing heel raises again on days off to try circumvent the calves soreness.

Anyway, did my first noninterval run in quite a while. 4 miles in 36:34. I'm still faster if I alternate between running and walking. Also the continous running leaves me feeling so much more tired.

That's odd, most people are faster at steady paced jog than run-walk - I'm not saying it's wrong to run-walk, just that you're probably not the norm in that respect. Learning to land mid-foot can cause more stress on the calves as they act as shock absorbers rather than the heel of your training shoes. Basically they've never done the job they were designed for...so take things easy as the calf does need to adapt to the extra stress. Also monitor the foot pain as again landing mid-foot means that the other shock absorber is the foot flexing every footfall so if you've never done it, it's another thing for the body to learn. In the case of the foot the foot the ligaments holding the small bones of the foot together are being challenged with repeated impacts, so they might need time to build up - as you know ligaments have less blood supply than muscles, so may take more time to adapt than the muscular system.
You seem to be doing really well with the knee & stuff, nice one

Yes, thanks, the knees have been feeling really good. Not even the slightest ache in my left at all. The right I think has a bit of possibly permanent ligament damage (from something I did at work) that I feel now and then but is no big deal.

I think if I get better at running, eventually I'll cover more distance at a constant run. Lately I had been concentrating on quarter mile intervals which I don't think was crossing over hardly at all into aerobic/endurance. Going to concentrate instead on half mile intervals. Did 5 this morning in an average of about 3:39.

I averaged 1:33 last I timed my quarters. I think obviously my endurance needs work.

Do you use a heart rate monitor? I was just wondering how you planned to progress, simply increase distances over time? I tend to get people wearing heart monitors as research seems to suggest that you get more accurate results using a heart monitor than perceived exertion, increases just set weekly in a cookie cutter style or other methods. Working in heart rate 'zones' - which depend on what level you're working at that day - means that you can monitor your increases & spot early signs of problems developing. I find them useful tools & don't cost that much (although wearing the chest strap can be annoying).

I bought one and once I really got going, I'm pretty sure it just started thinking my stride rate was my heart rate? I'd be going along at 150BPM and suddenly it would claim my HR was 180 something, without any more exertion or increased tiredness.

I plan to continue to focus on intervals, but quarters don't hit endurance very much, so I'm going to mainly do half mile intervals instead, or occasionally just run for 3 or 4 minute intervals if not at a track. I really enjoyed this last interval run and felt like with a bit of work at this distance I can really take a lot of time off it.

Also I had read that the target heart rate can really vary from person to person. For perceived exertion I'm trying to avoid feeling like bending over with my hands on my knees after each interval.

I think that I seem to progress decently with intervals between 3 and 6 minutes. For a goal of improving at the 3 to 4 mile distance, extended jogs and shorter intervals don't seem to help much. I'm going to really focus on that 3 to 6 minute range and see if I can shave another couple of minutes off my 5k time this summer.

I don't feel like overtraining has been an issue...? (Although yes, I'm slow, but I'm 220 and always have sucked at this distance, more of a sprinter/jumper.) I've been sleeping well and just really feeling quite good lately. Really since I gave up heavy weights I've been feeling great. Maybe the bicuspid aortic valve combined with heavy weights gave me the insomnia issues, who knows.

Did a 6/1 for 4 miles in 35:46. I think I maybe ought to concentrate on 6/1's for a while. The shorter stuff is perhaps a little too anerobic, makes me want to just lay around the next day or two, which can be disasterous if I've got 6 needy patients for 12 hours.

So 35:46 for miles is probably the fastest I've ever managed that. At least that I've ever timed. And definitely the fastest in the last 20 years. Probably could shave a minute or two off of that pretty quickly though as I've hardly ever done 6 minute intervals.

Right foot still hurting after wearing vibrams for a week. Maybe not getting better. Maybe I need to take some time off. But when my knees hurt they got better without taking time off.

...Previously did a 2/1 for 3 miles on Friday in 27:36. Had an awful day at work on Saturday. Nonstop for 13 hours and I was so tired from this run.

I'm not sure how applicable this would be to you, but I read this study about short term plyometrics & improved running mechanics as a possible cause, which might help with the knee & foot issues possibly, just a thought?

Thanks. I'm not sure. I have to get my remote library access fixed.

My knees have been feeling very good. The right foot bothers me a bit. Not sure if I should rest it or just keep running like I did somewhat through the knee pain.

Did a 6 minutes run 1 min walk interval for 4 miles yesterday in 34:47. Actually did the first 1.5 miles in about 11:30 but really ran out of steam on the way back.

As long as you bare in mind that you 'move away' from pain, so you will be compensating, so be aware of how your running gait modifies during any pain bouts. Gym lore states it only takes 300-400 reps to learn a new pattern (in this cases a new running pattern which is easy to do)...but it take 3,000-4,000 reps to fix faulty mechanics, so expect at least one run where you really have to focus on form correction once the pain goes completely!

Yes, I understand what you mean. In this case I have no pain while running and as such don't seem to be compensating in any way. At least not while running. But then when barefoot around the house I'm limping a bit.

But I have to land on my heels to have no pain. And I keep hearing that's not really the correct form. (Although I feel fine doing it.) When the foot heals I'll again try to change my form and I do expect to have trouble changing form then.

If you think about landing impact & shock absorption then you can see why people say you shouldn't do it.
When jogging every impact around 3 to 4 times your bodyweight as you land (obviously this is an average & some people will land heavier or lighter). So where does this form go?
Version 1 - heel landing
In this version you land on your heel & the impact is transmitted through the heel & is absorbed in the bones & joints (not so good)

Version 2 - mid-foot landing

You land mid-foot & some of the impact is absorbed as elastic energy in the foot itself, the rest is absorbed by the Achilles tendon & calf. A lot of the energy is used on the next stride.

Possible problems with the heel landing are joint issues in the ankle, knee & hip areas, bone issues (like shin splints for example) can develop.

Possible issues with mid-foot style are calf or Achilles tendon issues if you are not used to running this way. Basically you may have weak muscles when it comes to eccentric deceleration, you may need to strengthen them first.

There may be other issues about your ankles, knees or hips that need checking out? Or possibly a serious running fault, or possibly you're just a outlier who bucks the trend & just runs in an unusual way.

Yes, I know. It would seem landing on the heel would be a bad idea. But, I'm not entirely sure. Was thinking that if you actually think about the bone structure of the foot, it's a bit more like a two legged tripod with the heel "leg" being much shorter as opposed to a letter "L" shape where the heel doesn't stick out at all.

What I mean to say is that if you land heel first but use the muscles on the front side of the shin to cause the front of the foot to then land in a controlled manner there is some shock absorption. More so than if you land flat footed anyway, (although clearly not as much as if you land on the front of the foot first.)

And meanwhile while landing on the front of the foot would seem to mean more shock absorption, there can be a kind of breaking effect with such a running style as opposed to smoothly rolling forward with each stride (from heel to ball).

Ultimately I don't really know though. I've heard that ALL elite runners land ball first. But then I very well recall seeing an elite runner in person who very clearly landed heel first. Personally, for now, landing heel first seems to have coincided with my knee pain disappearing. But I recognize it might not work out in the long term.

Also though, for now with whatever I did to my right foot, it's the one way I can run that is comfortable.

BTW, I found a site that says at least for longer distances, virtually everyone covers ground faster if they alternate running and walking: http://www.jeffgalloway.com/
I'm not as unusual as I had thought, I guess, although I'm not interested in marathons at this time. OTOH, doing one long run every two weeks (which other than constant interval training is about what Galloway amounts to) wouldn't be so bad....

One thing I wanted to do was be able to do a 3/1 interval in less then 8 minutes per mile. A couple weeks ago I did 7:48 for a mile that way, in the middle of trying to run 5 days a week. Nut much mileage but very high intensity. I crashed and burned after about a week or so. Back to trying 3 days a week. Did 6 miles last night running two minutes, walking one, in 56 minutes. Lost a minute or so as the lights were off in the 1/4th mile tunnel and it was pitch black, had to walk. May attempt to repeat this run a number of times.

Still my best half mile is 3:16 but I think I could do a little better now. I can run through the tunnel in 1:15 which I think is just slightly less than half a mile. Sick though of that kind of intensity. Hence looking at 6 mile interval runs.

So I did 3 6 mile runs for two weeks straight, then the last two weeks did a bit of this and that. On monday did a 3/1 5k in 25:10 which is a PR for me. And then this morning did a 2/1 6 miles in 54:40 which is a PR for me. Followed by slogging an extra mile.

What have I done recently that actually worked?

Not sure. Maybe the extra mileage. But I think the quarter mile repeats I did on Friday really helped me out. I went just a bit slower with less rest inbetween. For the first 6 I did one every 4 minutes. Or just could be the quality fast running which maybe I had strayed from a bit it seems like in previous weeks.

Not sure but thinking to do a bit more conventional training with a speed day, (quarter repeats) and a 5k day and then a long run day each week.